Transcript
Maddie: Maureen, before we get into today’s conversation, I want to start with something I know you hear surprisingly often from extraordinarily accomplished executives. Sometimes it’s, I don’t have an MBA. I didn’t go to an Ivy League school. I don’t have the right pedigree. And what’s interesting is that these aren’t necessarily people early in their careers wondering whether they’re qualified. These can be CEOs, presidents, operating executives, and other senior leaders who have already built companies, led transformations, managed significant PLs, and made consequential enterprise decisions. What does that doubt surface after they’ve already accumulated so much evidence of their capability?
Maureen: Well, I think that that’s what makes this topic. So interesting. And you and I have had several conversations about this topic. And I’ve seen some version of this dozens of times over the years in conversations with highly accomplished business leaders. And it’s quite surprising to me. And I’ve started to think that the issue really isn’t education at all. I think it’s what happens when someone who has spent so much of his or her career being chosen suddenly has to choose and then position themselves. So, as you and I have spoken I’ve spoken about before, many successful executives have been rapidly promoted, repeatedly recruited, or brought into opportunities by people who already know their work.
So, the reputation has traveled ahead of them, if you will. And then, of course, something happens, something changes, and it could be a number of things, but typically It’s an acquisition or a new board chair. We know that one is a common one, Maddy. It could be a new investor or a succession promise that doesn’t materialize or the executive realized that the mandate has run its course. And of course that happens and that’s just a normal course of business. But it can also be very simply that they’re ready to move on to something new. So what do they do? They Reach out to executive recruiters, they apply for a few positions, they talk to people they know, and nothing happens. There’s silence. And we’ve often talked about what silence gets filled in with. And this is often where a very accomplished person begins to search for an explanation for that silence. So, we’ve heard it before maybe I don’t have the right degree, maybe I should have gone to a different school, maybe I need an MBA, maybe my network isn’t in the right city, maybe my title isn’t quite right. And I think that we have to be very careful about the conclusions we draw from this silence because silence is data, but it isn’t necessarily a verdict on your capability. And sometimes it’s evidence that the market doesn’t yet understand what you do. What do you think, Maddie?
Maddie: Yes, I agree. There’s an interesting disconnect there because the evidence performance hasn’t suddenly just disappeared.
Maureen: Exactly! There’s some fascinating evidence around this. And one of my favorite authors, a fellow Canadian, Malcolm Gladwell, explored something adjacent to this in his Outliers book. He looked at the undergraduate institutions attended by groups of American Nobel Prize winners in medicine and chemistry. And certainly there were graduates of Harvard, Yale, MIT, and Columbia, but there were also graduates of Holy Cross, Gettysburg, Hunter College, Grinnell, Dayton, Berea, and many other institutions. So Gladwell’s larger argument was about thresholds. Once somebody possesses the capability required to perform at an exceptional level, prestige alone doesn’t neatly predict exceptional accomplishment. So I think there’s a very useful parallel in executive careers because an elite education can absolutely be an asset. We know that. And we don’t want to minimize that whatsoever. It may provide extraordinary professors, experiences, signals, and perhaps most importantly for the conversation we’re having today, Maddie, access and proximity to very influential networks. And those relationships can compound over decades. But the absence of that pedigree does not erase 20 or 25 years of operating evidence, right?
So even when we look at today’s senior leadership marketplace, the picture is much more varied than people sometimes assume, right? So recent analysis of Fortune 1000 C suite executives found that fewer than 50 actually held MBAs. So, when an executive who has built businesses, led people, allocated capital, entered markets, managed crises, or created hundreds of millions of dollars in enterprise value tells me, I don’t think I have the right pedigree, my response is usually, let’s look at the evidence. What problems have organizations trusted you to solve? Under what conditions? What changed because you were there? And who in the marketplace needs that capability now? I think those are much more useful questions.
Maddie: Yes, that’s where this becomes a career governance issue rather than simply just a job search issue.
Maureen: I think so. So, one of the ideas I’ve been developing in our career governance framework is that being qualified for the next role and being positioned to access the next role are not the same thing. And I think it’s an important distinction because organizations don’t hire a biography. They hire someone to solve a problem reduce risk, create an outcome, capture an opportunity or lead through a particular set of circumstances. And of course, your education is part of your story. Your title is part of your story. Your industry is part of your story, certainly, but none of those things by themselves constitute your value proposition, right? Right. At the senior level, I want to understand the pattern underneath, what repeatedly gets handed to you. Where do you create disproportionate value? What kind of complexity are you on at navigating? Who already knows that about you? And I think that that’s something that a lot of people don’t think about. And where are the organizations experiencing the very problems you know how to solve? And that’s where career governance becomes very practical.
I wanted to briefly talk about our airline industry executive who was in his 70s. For the first time in his entire career, he didn’t have a contract. He contacted us and he said he thought he didn’t, because he didn’t have an MBA and he was older, that he wouldn’t be considered. And that was certainly not the case whatsoever. It just happened to be that his pipeline was dry at the moment. But that silence that he was experiencing became very real for him. And by going through the evidence so, what do you do to make money, save money, solve a problem, or a combination of those? What are those data points? And then we were able to help him construct, you know, a story that was easily. Help him construct a story that was easily told to decision makers. You begin managing your career much as you would manage another important portfolio, right? Knowing what you own, understanding its value, recognizing concentration risk, maintaining relationships, watching the market, and thinking about your next move before you’re forced to make it. And the concentration risk, I’d like to talk to that for just a second. And that is when we’re spending. Perhaps too much time relying on executive recruiters for that next mandate. We’ve talked about that before, too. So it’s a combination of what’s being presented to you through your network, working with the recruiter cohort, and using that hidden market we talk about. And there’s another piece of this that executives sometimes underestimate your network is not simply a collection of people who might know about a mandate, whether it’s a board mandate, CEO, it’s part of your career infrastructure. So an elite university can help create that infrastructure because it gives you proximity to people. Proximity can also be built deliberately through operating relationships, boards, investors, clients, industry communities, professional associations, and the reputation you accumulate throughout your work.
That is why I don’t particularly like the question, Do I have the right pedigree? I think the more useful questions here are what does the market need? What evidence do I have that I can deliver it? And do the right people know about me?
Maddie: Which brings us very nicely into today’s episode because we’re talking about what happens when a highly successful executive reaches a transition point and discovers that managing an organization and managing a career requires some surprisingly different muscles. And if you’ve spent much of your career being Recruited rather than having to actively go to market yourself, I think you’ll recognize a lot of what we’re about to discuss.
Maureen: And particularly if you’re currently experiencing that uncomfortable gap, your record tells you that you’re qualified, but the market isn’t responding the way you expected. I hope you’ll resist the temptation to immediately turn that silence into a story about what’s wrong with you or what’s missing from your credentials. It may be time to examine the positioning instead, because that’s a problem we can actually work on. So let’s get to it.
Maddie: Maureen, you work with very senior executives who are often extraordinarily successful. What surprises you about what happens when some of them finally decide it’s time to leave?
Maureen: Well, it’s interesting to me because, you know, many of the people we speak with and work with have led, let’s just say, mid market companies anywhere between 10 million and 1 billion and above and more as well. We’ve had some clients who have managed. You know, 40 billion in PL, the principle stays the same however. It’s time, there’s been a trigger event, and that leader decides that they want to transition into a new role. But what often happens is that they have been repeatedly recruited throughout their entire careers, they’ve been rapidly promoted and repeatedly recruited is what I often say. And I would have to say probably over The span of the last 15 years, I’ve worked with probably 200 executives who somewhat fall into this category of brilliant, successful. And then when it’s time to transition out of a role, whether it’s selling a company or they have been acquired and only one CEO is required and they’re not the chosen CEO, they’re left really confused about what to do. That surprises me that these individuals who are managing massive business. You know, massive businesses, making big enterprise decisions, and really influencing entire regions of the country, that they are left rendered uncertain how to move forward. So what often happens is that executives will start tapping their networks, and they’ll start going to recruiters, and they’ll start applying for jobs randomly without a plan. We call the management of one’s career like the management of one’s financial portfolio or business as a governing the portfolio if you will. So, just to recap, what surprises me is that executives and business leaders who manage these massive businesses often approach their own transition in a less planned way. So, it can be somewhat reactive rather than proactive and governed, if we want to use that word.
Maddie: Right, yeah, that makes complete sense. I think, you know, if you’ve never really had to look at career governance, because your path has been kind of laid out before you, not that you know, you haven’t had to work hard for your path, but just in the sense that to your point, they’ve been promoted, their network has been expanded, and it’s expansive. And therefore they’ve kind of just been introduced to next opportunities when they do have to put pen to paper themselves. It can be a little bit overwhelming. And they may not be sure, you know, like where to start, what’s the most important thing, how to prioritize, where do we begin. So, given that’s, I think, something that probably many executives can relate to, and to some extent, what would be a good first step?
Maureen: Well, I think it’s to be self aware and to be aware of it. And there’s always a trigger event in my experience, anyway. Even in my own career, there have been trigger events where I’ve said, okay, it’s time to start thinking about the next opportunity. But that next first step is not applying for jobs and going to recruiters, in my experience, anyway. So, you know, if there’s a trigger event, suppose you’re Organization, there’s a hint of an acquisition, or there is an interpersonal issue with the board, and that often happens. And it comes to the point of sudden realization I need to leave. So, when that happens, it’s best to I know this is going to sound really self serving, but to talk to someone, an independent advisor who can help that person really understand the current state, what’s going on, and how to plan an appropriate exit strategy that’s going to leave your reputation in tact.
Maddie: Yeah. In your experience and with those you’ve worked with before, how long can an exit strategy take?
Maureen: That’s a really good question. There are multiple layers. You know, one is the actual, I need to go to market. And how do I get to market? That’s one layer. The next layer is managing the internal ecosystem because of course, executives when they exercise their options, there’s often a timing issue as well as payout. And so those things need to be considered as well. Those are things that the executive has less control over because they’re set by corporate strategy and by the board. There is a longer term thought process here and I’m going to use the world private equity as an example, because it’s so easy to understand. So typically, in a private equity World, we know that there is a holding period of the company, let’s say typically between five and seven years. And we know at the end of the seventh year, there’s going to be a transaction, there’s going to be a sale, an IPO, some type of a liquidity event. Well, that’s perfect. You know that. That’s easy. You can project that. You can imagine, you know the timing, you know all of the steps that need to happen between now and then and when the exit is ready to happen. That’s the easiest scenario. And, you know, I often say that. The private equity world, especially for CEOs, is somewhat predictable. I’m not saying it’s not challenging, it’s a very challenging ecosystem to operate in, but at least we know that there will be an exit.
There’s another scenario where something has happened, we brought on a new board chair, we brought on a new investor, brought on a new team member, there’s been some change in the Organization that has created some interpersonal conflict or discomfort. For that, we’ll use the CEO as a proxy here for the C level individual. In that situation, it can feel like I need to leave here tomorrow, and that is not typically practical. But as soon as there is a trigger event and we are imagining not being here in six months’ time, it’s really Time to start taking an inventory of skills and Inventory of the network, and to plan that exit strategy. What do I need to do over the next six months to position myself and the organization favorably for my exit? That could be I need a succession plan for my team. If I’m the CEO and I know that I’m going to be departing, what can I do to set the team up for success after I’m gone? That is an ideal scenario because the most important thing asset that anyone has. Is the most important asset that anyone has is their professional reputation, the reputation in general. And so maintaining that by making sure that projects are closed out, that members of the team have what they need. As you consider your exit, you may even imagine who might succeed you. Oftentimes in organizations, there can be a 2IC that can come in and if not take over the role permanently, take over the role in an interim basis. So, keeping in mind that the organization that you leave needs to be left as healthy as possible, being a steward of the organization is a good philosophy.
Maddie: That makes sense to me. To your exact point earlier, exit strategy should be on your mind almost just as soon as you enter that opportunity it’s something that you need to be considering because you just don’t know necessarily when that exit strategy is going to be needed or how long it’s going to take. And it has a lot of layers to your point. So, when we have somebody at the C suite level, their career trajectory has been somewhat dictated by certain circumstances that have kind of kept them with a focus. And now they know they have the awareness, they know they need an exit strategy. I imagine there can be a sense of doubt, maybe an internal narrative of maybe I don’t belong because I don’t have the right pedigree. So, while balancing the exit strategy and you know gaining that awareness, kind of sorting out what your next steps might be, what what are some common themes that you see in regards to you know this kind of self doubt? And and what are maybe some just preliminary tools for overcoming them?
Maureen: That’s another really good question, and you and I talked about this a few weeks ago, and it had to do with always being chosen versus putting your hand up. I think that has to be probably the biggest challenge internally that executives face if they are forced into a transition, a termination, or if they feel that they have no other choice. So maybe they spend that six months doing the exit strategy and then they go to market. And all of a sudden, there’s silence. They’re not getting any response from the recruiter sector. Maybe they’re applying for roles for which they are fully qualified and they’re not hearing back. And so, oftentimes, what happens is the self doubt comes in the form of, you know, I don’t have the right education. I don’t have an Ivy League degree. I don’t have an MBA. I’m not from, you know, the best areas of the country. My networks are not in New York. These are all fillers that fill in that empty space when executives don’t hear back from recruiters, and nothing could be further from the truth. And if you look at the evidence, the silence is not coming from lack of capability or lack of experience, it’s coming from a place of lack of positioning in the marketplace. Because if you’ve always been recruited or promoted in your career so far, you’ve never had to go to market. You’ve never had to position yourself with people you don’t know. I’m assuming that anyone listening here who has been repeatedly recruited and rapidly promoted have often, or or will de facto, have known their networks as they’ve navigated throughout their career so far. So, going into a new market, and I call that new market the recruiter market. And typically, most often, the recruiter market is unknown to the executive. So, the client companies that the recruiters are representing are likely unknown to that executive. So, those are some of the issues I see. And so, I think going back to making an inventory of all of your accomplishments over the last few mandates. So, what have been the big wins? Were the last few mandates? And looking at that objectively and creating a basic inventory of what was happening in the marketplace at the time. What did I do? What was the situation? What did I do? What actions did I take to address those challenges? And what were the results short term results, long term results? And then what was the impact of the results on the organization? What was the strategic impact of those results on the stakeholders in the organization?
And to me, that feels like a logical place to start because then you can start identifying patterns in your competencies. You know, what am I really good at? Maybe it’s I’ll give an example. I worked with a lovely gentleman and he was hired multiple times as a chief revenue officer and he was hired for growth. And so organizations who needed to increase their market share and things like that hired him to do that. And what happened is one of the last roles that he was in, the organization was facing bankruptcy. He had no idea what was going on inside the organization, privately held, and didn’t get to see the audited financial statements before he signed his contract and then realized shortly after joining the company that he was no longer in a growth mandate, he was in a turnaround mandate. And so what that meant is that he had to help the company through their due diligence process to get to a valuation point and then position it for sale. It ended beautifully, but he didn’t know that at the time. And at the end of that mandate, he and I talked about this quite often, he learned a new skill set going into this mandate. And he realized, you know I’m really not a turnaround guy. I’m more of a growth guy. And having those two, you know, dichotomous experiences really helped him realize, you know, growth is really where I’m very well positioned. And he was in a very specific industry as well. So taking an inventory of the capabilities of the experience and really looking at patterns, that’s what I would do first.
Maddie: That’s a perfect answer. It will be so useful in numerous ways to do so because it will be grounding in the moment to, you know, review and sort of audit your own experiences. And as you’re recalling, you know, all of the work that you’ve done, you may realize in that process. You know, what you would prefer your next title to be or the direction you want to take your career in. And then, furthermore, when you’re, you know, months later in conversations with people as you’re moving into that next opportunity, you will have had these case studies basically of things that you’ve done successfully. So, I think you and I can probably both relate to this. I’ve experienced some different titles that I didn’t necessarily know existed. I think maybe 10 years ago, I would have just assumed, you know, CEO, CFO, COO. But then I think sometimes, depending on the company that you’re talking about, there’s different kinds of C suite titles. So, like, chief client officer, chief growth officer, chief success officer, like all these different versions of what could be similar in some ways. I’m wondering, is that first of all, is that something that you’ve also experienced? And secondly, is that something that people can take comfort in knowing what was once just chief growth officer and meant this? Now there are three or four different kinds of titles at the C suite level where that person’s experience can be applicable.
Maureen: Yeah, you’re right. Business titles are very important. Oftentimes, it’s really understanding the enterprise impact of what you’re doing and what you’ve done. And sometimes it can be difficult to translate the title into a more homogenous, recognizable title that recruiters would understand or decision makers would understand. And it comes down to kind of that congruence between the title and the capability and the mandate. I can think of an example, and this happens quite a bit. Oftentimes, there will be a chief product officer, it could be any title who’s actually de facto running the firm, they’re running the company. This is more so in the private sector, but this certainly does happen in the public sector as well, where you have a leader who is leading the company, their PL experience, they’re making decisions around product, price, they’re making decisions on operating expenses, capital expenses, and they’re really the decision makers for the entire organization. But their title may not reflect it. And so sometimes it’s difficult. Explanations get lost in translation, especially when you’re speaking with recruiters, for example. So, and when I say recruiters, I’m talking third party recruiters, not necessarily internal recruiters, although certainly that can be a challenge as well, because industries have standards and will create a, I guess you would call It nomenclature or business title system that makes sense to their industries. I remember working in energy and we had a lot of engineers who I worked with. And so a level four engineer was more senior than a level three engineer, but the marketplace didn’t really understand that because it was company specific. So it can be a challenge. And I think that those things often will stand in the way of successful executives getting comfortable with their value proposition. How do I Explain that, you know, actually I’m the COO of the company, but I make all of the decisions. The CEO is not active in the role or is only partially active in the role. And how do I communicate that to the marketplace?
Maddie: So to round out the call, I think, you know, we’ve talked about a few different things here, but what is, you know, maybe one or two key takeaways you’d like to give the audience regarding career governance?
Maureen: I would say if you’ve led a company, you can lead a career change. And the discipline that’s required, they’re not completely comparable or congruent. But if you think about taking an evidence based, data driven approach to a job search, applying the same principles and being able to communicate to the marketplace the product, you are now the product and you need to find an ideal customer. We call that the ideal company profile for your capabilities. I think right out of the gate, what’s missing for a lot of executives who are suddenly, for the first time in their career, doing a job search on their own, if you’re going to do it by yourself, if you’re going to do it on your own, really understand the market before you go to it. Understand, you know, if you are, and I’ll just Use this as an example because it’s easy to imagine you are a CEO in a medical device manufacturing company in the mid market, say 100 million in revenue. And if you’re looking for a faster transition into a new role, a very similar sized company might be a good option for targeting and knowing. What your capabilities are, going back to that inventory and identifying organizations that match that criteria that have what you need, creating a list of those companies you can use, by the way, parenthetically, you can use a Google Map search or a ChatGPT or tool of your choice to find, you know, what are the top 10 medical device manufacturing companies, you know. Within a 100 mile radius of Chicago. Now you have a list. You can now tap into your networks because now you’ve got something to present to the recruiters. So, you know, you can go to a recruiter and say, This is a list of 10 companies that I’m interested in, that I am qualified for, that I would align with, that I have experience in. And you can also take that list to Your networks, your friends, colleagues, and so forth.
I do understand that confidentiality is absolutely critical in these situations, especially if you’re still within your organization and still executing on your mandate. So that needs to be considered. Recruiters will always protect your confidentiality. And I think that having a conversation with your networks, friends, colleagues, from a general point of interest, you’re interested in this particular company. And that interest could fall under the category of job opportunity or strategic partnership or, you know, customer. Strategic partnership or customer acquisition. There’s all kinds of reasons to be having conversations with your network about a particular group of companies. People will certainly understand without your pointing it out that you are strategically seeking opportunities. They may not know exactly what for, but it’s much easier and much better than knocking on a door saying, Do you have a job for me or do you know of any jobs? It’s a very, very different experience between Being recruited and actually proactively going to the market on your own behalf. It’s a very different experience for a lot of people. It’s doable and it certainly can feel uncomfortable when there is silence after you’ve reached out to recruiters or other parties. Don’t let that silence hijack your sensibilities, meaning don’t let that silence represent something that is not actually accurate, such as I don’t have the right networks, I don’t come from the right part of the country, I don’t have an Ivy League degree, I don’t have an MBA. So that’s what I would say in terms of what executives can do as they are transitioning, whether it is through part of a planned exit strategy or in reaction to something that. Has been unforeseeable.
I mean, ultimately, this is the work that we do for our clients. We help them with difficult transitions and we do it in close collaboration with our clients as they’re transitioning into some really exciting roles.
Maddie: Yeah, I would have to agree. Well, thank you very much, Maureen. I think this was a really good conversation and stay tuned for more conversations between Maureen and I.